Supermatic (C series)
The advertised "new and improved design" changes for the new ('07) Supermatics are the Acetal (plastic) cutter/compressor and the "precision cut" H-link. For now, the following is mostly about the structural aspects of the new Supermatic and how it differs from recent, B-series, Supermatics. While the plastic cutter is the most significant improvement, there are a few other unadvertised improvements and nice touches . Unfortunately, the new H-link is not one of the improvements.
For some reason they are calling the new H-link "precision cut" and claiming that it allows "...for a more precise fit between screws and rivets at all pivot points.". The new linkage is die stamped, just like the old one, and actually has more slop/play than the old one. Unlike the old linkage, the new linkage has sharp little flanges of metal around the holes (left over from the die stamping process). Due to the flanges, it is not possible to tighten up the linkage without disassembling it so that the flanges can be removed. After doing this I was still not able to get a precision fit and wonder if the shoulders on the rivets are a bit taller than on the old linkage. It appears that I will need to add a thin nylon washer to get the same fit I was able to get with the old linkage. The only other difference is that they used a silver colored plating on the legs, i.e the new linkage is dimensionally the same as the old (e.g. not thicker as someone reported).
I haven't used the plastic cutter for long but it seems to make for a smoother operating machine and it will not have near (if any of) the gunk buildup, scratching (...the cutter does get scratched up), etc, issues of an aluminum cutter. My one concern is that, with the rough die-stamped H-link holes, the posts will be prone to wear. Incorporating something like half-moon bolsters to share the load would have been a good idea (IIRC Arnold Kastner's last patent incorporated a similar idea for the top end of the linkage). The new plastic cutter is a few thousandths thicker than the old aluminum cutter. While it will fits and works great in the Top-O-Matic, it fits a bit snug in the chamber and a bit loose on the linkage of the Supermatic II.
I'm not sure if its new to the c-series, but, they tightened the gap between the spoon carriage and tobacco chamber. The larger gap on the older machines allowed the spoon to hang up on/in the carriage during retraction. The problem was serious enough that all machines had bevels added (by hand) to the mounting end of the spoon (if you bought a replacement spoon you had to do it yourself) to prevent hangup. The Top-O-Matic folks got the bright idea of incorporating bevels into the spoon body injection mold. The Supermatic folks got to the root of the problem and tightened the gap. With the smaller gap the spoon cannot get twisted/bound or hang up and bevels are unnecessary.
It would have been nice if they had gone a step past Top-O-Matic with the tube release adjuster as well. The Supermatic used to have an ineffective locating bump on the adjuster plate (the Supermatic II has an effective tab). The Top-O-Matic folks improved on that and made theirs functional. The Supermatic folks got rid of the locating bump all together on the new machine. Since theirs didn't really work, its not a great loss but I would really like to see some improvement here, e.g. some sort of eccentric adjuster.
... A couple of other, relatively minor, things. The new crank arm knob has sharp little flanges around the middle, not as nice as the old one. I don't know if its better/makes a difference but the spot welds are smoother/flatter on the new machine. That the bolts on the H-link and spoon mount have the same heads - 5/16" wrench or flat blade screwdriver - is a nice touch (see the back view).
Comments [ new ]
- Re:SM Gripper Cap Update
- Posted by mike c on Tuesday, 11-Mar-2008
last night I dropped my gripper cap and the cat must have got it, so I went into my supplies and got out one of the very latest Arbro caps
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these are totally round and not ovoid, and the stupid thing pops up and off like a jack-in-the-box
what to do, I got quite a few
- Re: Re:SM Gripper Cap Update
- Posted by Jeffo on Tuesday, 11-Mar-2008
Mike C.
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Call a medical supply in your area and purchase a foot of 3/16" I.D. X 1/16" wall thickness latex surgical tubing and forget those Arbro ones. I bought a bunch of those before I knew better too. This stuff gives much more contact and just the right tension. I've had not even one torn tube since I started using the surgical tubing and no early releases. I found some on the internet but they want to sell you 10' or so about $8.00 and the shipping is like $10.00. Motor cycle shops, hobby shops may have it or something similar or maybe sporting goods or diving shops. I know you already know about this mod. I'm just reminding you. The stock ones...Fugget A Bahd It...Jeffo
- Re: Re:SM Gripper Cap Update
- Posted by Jeffo on Tuesday, 11-Mar-2008
Alternative solution: You may have some lube of some kind inside the new cap making it slip off easily.Clean the new cap with some lighter fluid or maybe alcohol also clean the gripper and this should give more friction to hold the cap on. If you don't want bother finding the latex stuff.
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- Re: Re:SM Gripper Cap Update
- Posted by mike c on Tuesday, 11-Mar-2008
thanks for that-
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I am a bit strange in this area- I have no problems with the regular gripper caps and I like the stock look so prefer to stay with these, but will be forced to use RC hose if I don't brainstorm or if your suggestion which I will try doesn't work.....hmmm
thank you!!
- DL Prediction SM Cutter Problem Reality
- Posted by mike c on Sunday, 09-Dec-2007
newsflash
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bad news
Dave's concern has become reality.....the machine I am currently using all the time suddenly developed jamming, as if I were on the old aluminum one
I thought it odd, but kept with it for several days because it protected me from a habit of overstuffing....
tonight I investigated and discovered one of the posts had worn down slightly
I just corrected the problem by adding tiny amounts of superglue around it, but of course I don't know if and for how long it will last
here is the confusing and problematical details:
the machine first had the newer H-Link on it, and while I was using cut down tobacco and tubes were being overstuffed there was never a sense of tightness or extraordinary pressure during injection......but the funny part is, it developed this problem AFTER I switched the cutter out for the old linkage and have NOT been using snipped tobacco, NOR overstuffing
so HUH????
I say the following words in TOTAL HONESTY...the plastic cutter is so fantastic this is still no reason in MY OPINION to be discouraged from switching....NO WAY IN HELL would I return to the now TOTALLY LAUGHABLE metal one.......there you have tonights brainteasing mess lol;)
- Re: DL Prediction SM Cutter Problem Reality
- Posted by Jeffo on Monday, 10-Dec-2007
Hi Mike,
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One would think that these plastic cutters would have been tested for this problem by the manufacturer before going into production or maybe selling cutters is a good business. We all know about the automotive aftermarket performance parts industry that sprang up because of this kind of thing. Back to the imagination.
- Re: DL Prediction SM Cutter Problem Reality
- Posted by Wazmo Nariz on Monday, 10-Dec-2007
I forgot how long it's been now since I installed my plastic cutter (I think I was one of the first here to receive one), and so far, still no problems. Everything still looks relatively snug with no noticable (to my eyes) problems with the fit between the posts and H-linkage. Still an easy action and nothing that has given me any problems whatsoever. I've almost forgotten what a pain in the arse it was to pop the old aluminum cutter out regularly to clean....
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- Re: DL Prediction SM Cutter Problem Reality
- Posted by Jeffo on Monday, 10-Dec-2007
Hi "Waz",
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Thanks for the encouraging post about your success with the plastic cutter. I'm new to this forum and don't know much about which machine are you using or the h-link on it. Would you guess 6 mo. or a year since you put the new cutter in? Mine are working good so far but it's only been 2 or 3 weeks now. Do you use the machine all the time or just occasionally? Mike dropped a pall on the cutter and I'm concerned.
- Re: DL Prediction SM Cutter Problem Reality
- Posted by mike c on Monday, 10-Dec-2007
when I posted "let's have a moment of silence in observation of Wazmo Nariz" the other day, it's because he was first before they even had the c-model out.....however I do get to claim second
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I suppose it might not hurt to mention that this machine was given to me with a bad over-sized nozzle that also stuck out too far and I replaced it.
The machine is strange and I _think_ it may have been slighly tighter on the action than usual (however my supermatic has the tightest action of any of my machines)
it fills a little less than normal and I like it for my 17 mm filters
I am baffled and am thinking of asking for a replacement
my fix is holding as of 24 hrs lol
- Re: DL Prediction SM Cutter Problem Reality
- Posted by Jeffo on Monday, 10-Dec-2007
Hi Mike,
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I found this post by Wazmo Nariz (Nariz means nose in spanish not knows):
Posted by Wazmo Nariz on Friday, 04-May-2007
It's been a few months since I replaced my Supermatic's old cutter and H linkage with the new versions and it's been great. Not once have I had to take the thing apart to clean off cutter gunk buildup, and operation has not degraded at all since installation...nice and smooth the way it oughta be, with far more consistent end results. Amazing what a couple of simple alterations can do....
So it looks like he's had the plastic in for about 10-11 months. Not too bad even if they it turns out that they fail earlier than the old sticky aluminum jobs. Any way we all have to love the feedback this site offers thanks again DL.
- Re: DL Prediction SM Cutter Problem Reality
- Posted by mike c on Tuesday, 11-Dec-2007
I had mine just days after Wazmo, I have a total of 4 now
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let's just hope this was a poorly molded one or something
Wazmo Nariz is the name of a band, and he knows some or all of them
looks like superglue can at least fix the problem while waiting for a new one
Maybe Dave or someone will brainstorm....
cheers
- New and Improved Supermatic
- Posted by David Brown on Friday, 27-Jul-2007
I just got my new Super today and all I can say is WOW!!!!
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My 500 series according to Arbro couldnt be upgraded so I went ahead and ordered one of the new ones.
The compression stroke is about the same pressure as the 500 series but the fill stroke....I thought I broke the spring at first it is just so slick that it is amazing. I ordered a couple of boxes of 100 mm tubes as well and the new super stuffs both 100 and king as close to perfect as I could have ever imagined.
My 500 series although closely tuned had a slight friction on the compression stroke and would jam fairly easy. It would also, always pull the tobacco out slightly on the retraction, where the new one does not.
I may have just gotten a bum 500 series the first time around I dont know but I will say anyone looking for a better crank machine needs to look no further than the new Supermatic.
Just make sure it says "new and improved design" on the box.
- Re: New and Improved Supermatic
- Posted by Dave Brown on Monday, 30-Jul-2007
After a few days of living with the new machine I have a few observations.
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First off let me say I am not an engineer or rocket scientist. That said my observations are just that my observations.
It appears that the new super in addition to the cutter and h-link it may also have a smaller nozzle. I base this on the tubes and of course putting my 500 series and the new one side by side and a tube that is tight on the 500 is loose on the new one.
If it is compressing tighter and going though a smaller diameter nozzle this explains why there is little or no filter void or drag as the spoon retracts.
When I got my 500 series I made about 200 smokes and had to tighten the h-link nuts and the tube release nut and since have always had to keep an eye on the tube release nut, even though it has the plastic insert to keep it tight if I tightened it down the tube release wouldnt function so I had to back it off and thus after a few sessions I would have to check it.
On the new machine I flipped the handle 180 degrees (personal preference) but other than that havent touched anything else. I checked today and taking off the base and gently pushing and pulling on the h-link and spoon link showed no wiggle or slack where the 500 seemed to develop slack within the first 200 sticks.
Over all the new machine is worlds apart from the 500 series, the action is what best can be described as slicker than snot on black ice :)
It is everything I had hoped a supermatic would be when I got my 500 series.
- Re: New and Improved Supermatic
- Posted by mike c on Monday, 30-Jul-2007
very interesting
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it looks like RBA may leave me supermatic-less, which is highly depressing but then I have got so far since I've been here it's amazing (to me)
I am still just totally confused over the nozzle issue, all I know is I have one perfectly flawless modified Ultimatic, another "Premier Ultimatic" (borrowed sticker) put onto the demo modified model, shelved......and a third Ultimatic that was supposed to be dead but wasn't, I loved it back to life, but the nozzle is TOO big for anyone but me, but the real problem is the nozzle is TOO LONG, and seems to be causing the tubes not to get filled as close to the tip (Dave? anyone??)......2 more machines awaiting repainting, and another Royale-Matic due to arrive any day
but the Supermatic is the standard
hahaha
- Re: New and Improved Supermatic
- Posted by Dave L on Tuesday, 31-Jul-2007
A few thousands difference in nozzle size is common and has no affect on tobacco plug diameter. The inside diameter of the nozzle is bigger than the diameter of the tobacco plug. How far the cutter/compressor comes forward determines the diameter of the tobacco plug. While theories on both ends have have been presented (smaller plug = less voids and bigger plug = better fill), tobacco volume and moisture have more effect on the end result than any slight variations in plug diameter.
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Without the spring, the gripper plate should move freely, a bit of looseness is fine and has no effect on function.
Filter voids that happen during spoon retraction are typically caused by tobacco that's too moist and 'sticking' to the spoon. Filter voids during injection are more common. Too much/moist tobacco increases the friction inside the tube and pushes it off prematurely. Here its important to rule out mechanical issues - weak gripper and early release timing.
My understanding is that they've tightened the rivet tolerances [...I was wrong, they didn't] on the new linkages. While its not a big issue, it is possible tighten up the old H-links.
- Re: New and Improved Supermatic
- Posted by mike c on Tuesday, 31-Jul-2007
Hi Dave +all
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if I may just say it's a breath of fresh air just to discuss this stuff for me, what with a ton of stress at present
also, yes, I feel so silly having amassed more machinery than is needed:-
I will however say, that upon receiving the Royale-Matic today it was just so nice to just make a snap quick adjustment to the time-release, exchange the rubber grip cap for a better one (possibly not necessary, I honestly do not know), and voila, instant great machine with the red color I wanted
I can and do understand now, and I thank you......I will see about getting my Super fixed .......but for the moment can just enjoy a couple great machines working tip-top.....
I was thinking about mentioning the linkage tightness situation, as I have come to the conclusion of "does it really matter?" with mine.....the Super definitely always won the prize for exact stiff perfectness with no play (for lack of another way of wording), but am just plenty happy with the other machines that have more play........also, I think for me, a habitual user of fairly moist and fresh baccy, this statement rings true : "no overhang, then it ain't worth a dang", as I never was able to get a perfect fill on any machine without tapping........
so anyway, I am really just saying hello to what I would like to think friend(s)....and thanks for getting me to this point,,,,,,,
mike c
- Re: New and Improved Supermatic
- Posted by mike c on Tuesday, 31-Jul-2007
not sure about the number of replies and annoyance, etc...hope it's ok to chime back in with:
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I was reading his post about a problem with the tension on the gripper itself (what I perceived I was reading) and I got confused, as I didn't understand _how_ there could be a problem with that (not being smart-ass at all, actually quite interested, etc).......because on all my machines, I thought all that is needed is for the things to be held "somewhat" close and be able to swing freely, etc.....
- Re: New and Improved Supermatic
- Posted by Smokin n Jokin on Tuesday, 31-Jul-2007
I tightened up the H link rivets on my supermatic II with a cold steel punch and a three pound drilling hammer, haven't had a problem wih it since.
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- Re: New and Improved Supermatic
- Posted by mike c on Wednesday, 01-Aug-2007
well cool then maybe Dave doesn't have to get bothered teaching me this one.....what is the deal with loose linkage...what does it cause/do poorly, etc???
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and another question: my supermatic had all brass colored parts inside, but I still liked the looks of everything best and pulled that h-link for another machine.......the clone machines have silver parts....which is best??
I was examining a wad of spoon arms, and noticed several had bends in them.....don't think it matters and they can be straightened, but maybe a product of lockups, etc....and obviously one would prefer the stronger metal, etc
- Re: New and Improved Supermatic
- Posted by Dave Brown on Sunday, 05-Aug-2007
New Video of making 20 kings is online at [link]
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It took 6:12 and again I wasnt in a real hurry
- Re: New and Improved Supermatic
- Posted by David Brown on Sunday, 19-Aug-2007
Well after 1200+ injected with no jams or other issues I let my wife use it since she can jam anything......sure enough she managed it but she was loading almost pure shake.
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Today I was using it and noticed a little friction on the fill stroke, I looked at the cutter it was clean so I took the spoon screw loose and slid the spoon out and behind where the spoon sits in the chamber had some residue. I took a pipe cleaner and some rubbing alcohol and cleaned her up let it dry and reassmbled and no friction what so ever.
- New and Improved Supermatic
- Posted by Dave L on Thursday, 03-May-2007
According to RBA, the new and improved Supermatic (w/ plastic cutter/compressor) is "in the market" and has new packaging to highlight the changes.
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- Re: New and Improved Supermatic
- Posted by Wazmo Nariz on Friday, 04-May-2007
It's been a few months since I replaced my Supermatic's old cutter and H linkage with the new versions and it's been great. Not once have I had to take the thing apart to clean off cutter gunk buildup, and operation has not degraded at all since installation...nice and smooth the way it oughta be, with far more consistent end results. Amazing what a couple of simple alterations can do....
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- Re: New and Improved Supermatic
- Posted by 2 Ultimatics and.... on Friday, 04-May-2007
A MICROPHONE!!!
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I took mine apart the night before last to clean before storing again (I want to preserve it)
while the compressor DOES get some scratches "topside" there was absolutely nothing down below.
It really does operate like a rocket across wet glass, my only complaint is the spring tightness, but that can obviously be remedied any ol' time (and never did have a thing to do with this subject)
I should get a royalty.
m