Posts from Nov 2005 to Jul 2006

General injector (machine and hand-held) questions, comments, news, deals, etc...

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Posted by Bryan on Thursday, 20-Jul-2006

I'm using the Top-o-Matic, and Premier king-size tubes.

No matter what I do, I get an unfilled spot near the filter. This is *not* because I have the length adjuster wrong - it happens no matter what the adjustment lever is set to. I am positive the spoon is getting all the way to the filter before the tube is released.

If I carefully pack the chamber with fresh tobacco right out of the bag (yes, filling the corners first) and crank trhough without putting a tube on, I can see the problem: for some reason, the end of the spoon is always empty! This occurs whether I pack the chamber tightly or loosely.

Anyone else seen this problem? Anyone solved it?

(Thanks ahead of time!)

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Re: Void near filter: Posted by Bob on Thursday, 20-Jul-2006
I had the same problem & found that while placing tobacco in the machine opening I compacted it a little more to the left & also tapping the tube toward machine while holding crank in down position helped fill the void.
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Re: Void near filter

Posted by Kerry on Friday, 21-Jul-2006

Not to beat an old horse, but check your humidity levels.

Not just the moisture levels of your tobacco, but also the ambient humidity of the area you are stuffing in.

If you are stuffing very moist or very "shakey" tobacco you will have this problem. Even with the tobacco at *proper* moisture levels, ambient humidity can drastically affect stuffing.

Of course, over filling the chamber is another cause of voids near the filter.

Try tamping the extreme ends of the chamber with your fingers. Especially at the filter end. If that doesn't work, try lightly tamping the chamber by pulling the arm until it JUST tamps the tobacco a couple or three times. Then stuff that tube as normal. That last tip works expecially well if you are experiencing ANY binding or abnormal pressure when moving the arm to stuff. Binding and excessive pressure on the arm is a very good indication of overly moist tobacco or over stuffed chamber. Shake tobacco can also cause this because it doesn't compress like fresh cut tobacco. However, I successfully stuff "shake" all the time by using much less tobacco than I would (by volume) in the chamber.

Lastly, nothing beats time and experience for stuffing the perfect smoke almost every time.

P.S.

I don't have a TOM, I have 2 Blue SuperMatics. One is a spare in case I break a part. Neither machine has ever needed adjustment other than replacing a couple of broken parts when I was learning how to use and clean it.

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Re: Stuffing "shake" with Premier Supermatic

Posted by Matt on Tuesday, 25-Jul-2006

If your alcoholic starts to get "shakey", close both nostrils & pour in liquor until level with the edge of lips, close mouth & there you go. Will only bind if it's too late. In that case a shot of Librium & Ativan through IV & Phenobarbitol in the hip is required.

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Re: Stuffing "shake" with Premier Supermatic: Posted by Mike on Tuesday, 25-Jul-2006
Matt, you know WAY too much about the "shakes" ;)
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Re: Void near filter

Posted by Dave L on Friday, 21-Jul-2006

Mechanical causes would only be suspect if you have a lot (more than 1/8") of tobacco sticking out of the end of the finished smoke. If the rest of the smoke is packed really tight or if using more tobacco causes jambing, the tobacco is probably too moist (or the machine needs cleaning...or the tobacco is really dry/brittle).

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Re: Void near filter

Posted by Kerry on Friday, 21-Jul-2006

I agree. Overly dry/brittle tobacco tends to turn into shake much faster than when properly hydrated. I always recommend keeping tobacco well hydrated (even over hydrated) for the purpose of blending, not stuffing or long term storage as overly hydrated tobacco may tend to grow mold or other nasties. This seems to keep the shake to a minimum along with gentle handling while blending.

We are in a drought with hot weather all over the country, so a/c's may be dehydrating some folks tobacco (more than they might think) if it isn't stored well. I think many people still don't take enough action to keep their tobacco at good hydration levels. I won't go into all the methods for this as they have been discussed at length already on this site. A quick search for "hydration", "humidity", etc. should find most of the information.

Thanks for the site!

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Re: Void near filter

Posted by floyd on Friday, 27-Oct-2006

I have the exact same problem, And just found the problem is, the blade/cutter isn't going far enough in. So the tobacco is hanging on the nozzle tip.. I can flip the machine over after I compress the tobacco and push the blade in deeper, flip it back over and then it makes a perfect sig.

My machine is 3 months old and been doing it since day one. (supermatic big blue)

Looks to me it's a design flaw in this machine. Must have been made on a friday and over looked ;/

guess I'll go to the store and pick up a top o matic and see how that works..

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Re: Void near filter: Posted by Wazmo Nariz on Friday, 27-Oct-2006
You'll likely encounter this situation even with the ToM...I've used both machines and can personally attest to the fact that with the variations in tubes/filter length, cut/moisture content of tobacco and that these machines are set up using an "average," slight adjustments are likely to be required unless you happen upon the right combination of factors to eliminate that need.

There is a wealth of information regarding tweaking here:
[link]
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Re: Void near filter: Posted by Dave L on Friday, 27-Oct-2006
That's a new one. The compressor/cutter on the blue Supermatic typically goes a bit further forward than necessary.

First things first. Have you cleaned the machine and is it smooth running without tobacco in it (i.e. no binding when the cutter reaches the front)? [link] Without tobacco in the machine, while watching through the nozzle, does the cutter come out past the nozzle at any point? [link]

P.S. I just found another reason to dislike the TOM (broken weld and more rust).
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Re: Void near filter: Posted by Kent C on Saturday, 28-Oct-2006
Pretty sure I had the same problem - cutter coming up short in the compression and a hard crank and there would be some compressed residue after the injection sitting in the slot just to the right of the nozzle. I've since bought a 'backup' Supermatic(blue) and the difference is day to night.

Someone, perhaps Dave, mentions in one post where the H can travel too far and that the cutter will retract a bit but that doesn't happen in my old one. Comparing the two, it's like the H links on the older one are a tad short and it appears that the cutter was on a bit of a diagonal when the connections to the H were made.

On the new one there is virtually no resistance on the injection part - can move it with one finger actually and the tube is completely filled. No 'gyrations' :-)[note to Kerry - appreciate and accept your apology - thanks.]

I'm sending the other into American Thrust for a fix. I noticed that the first one, though a 'premier' has a flat supermatic II 'nose' where the H goes against the side, and the new one is like the premier supermatic in the image gallery.

Just a side note that when I unpacked the new one, the main nut (bottom) was so tight that it was throwing the spoon out on the compression/cutting cycle. Fixed that and now all is well.

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Re: Void near filter

Posted by Herschel on Wednesday, 26-Jul-2006

I also use a Top-O-Matic. Yes, I have experienced the problem you are talking about but have found a way to solve the problem without all the humidity nonsense I'm reading here.

I have found that buying 6 oz. bags of tobacco so it stays fresh and you don't get as much shake and using El Ray tubes seem to work really great in my machine.

That is just fact from experience. I seem to have that problem with every other tube I use. I keep my setting at the 100mm setting even though I think the setting don't really do jack for anything.

Be sure not to over pack the chamber. Just what falls in will do the job fine. That was the hardest thing for me to get used to. Let the machine to the work.

H

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Re: Void near filter: Posted by Kerry on Wednesday, 26-Jul-2006
"humidity nonsense"?

You will learn eventually.
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Re: Void near filter

Posted by Bryan on Friday, 28-Jul-2006

Thanks everyone for good suggestions.

I'm seriously beginning to suspect a problem with the TOM; I also have a Blue Excel, and with the same tobacco & tubes and same approx chamber-filling, the Excel works great almost every time, whereas the TOM leaves the void nearly every time. To eliminate confusion, I mean the same tobacco at the same *time* - Excel & TOM machines working side by side from the same tobacco stash! So there's no issue with the tobacco drying out between cigarette-making sessions.

I've tried all the suggestions here. Yes, my tobacco has the right moisture content - which to my way of thinking means just slightly springy-feeling; not wet feeling and definitely not crunchy! Not the powdery shake at the bottom of the bag, either. As to suggestions that include cranking more times, or sliding the tube inwards a bit at the end of the crank cycle - those helped but didn't eliminate the problem. Besides which, the goal here is to keep the process as simple as possible. The Blue Excel is working great with no such fussing ...

PS: When I wrote the earlier post, my Excel was out of service. Since then I have received a new spoon from Arbro and it's back in service again. I've now tried the TOM, the plastic Supermatic II (the tan one), and the Blue & Silver Excels ... the Blue Excel makes the best stick by far, though it does occasionally break parts.

When that happens, I can now heartily recommend Arbro ( [link] ) to get your parts from. I paid a dollar apeice for new spoons for the Excel (got a couple of spares just in case) and they sent them right away!

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Re: Void near filter

Posted by Dave L on Saturday, 29-Jul-2006

The only thing I can think of mechanically (for no tobacco on the tip of the spoon) is if the cutter/compressor retracts beyond the nozzle opening (tobacco hangs up on the resulting lip). With the tobacco chamber closed, and just before the spoon starts extending (the crossarm of the 'H' should be touching the sidewall of the machine), see if its possible to push the cutter back behind the nozzle opening. Use a bamboo skewer or similar stuck through the nozzle opening.

On the other hand you haven't said the machine jambs. Are you sure you're using enough tobacco? Try packing in tobacco (paying particular attention to stuffing some extra into the nozzle end of the chamber) until the machine is hard to crank, just less than the jambing point. Tobacco can only compress so much and whatever you put in the chamber has to come out. If there's no lip for the tobacco to hang up on and compress the tobacco plug lengthwise (above), which would noticeably affect the feel of the machine and cause it to jamb quite easily, the only reason for no tobacco at the tip of the spoon is that there wasn't enough tobacco in the chamber to start with.

The only other things (far more common than no tobacco on the tip of the spoon) that cause filter end voids are the tube gripper not gripping well, the gripper release timing being to early, and the tobacco. Too much (dry tobacco is fragile and easy to over-pack) and/or too moist of tobacco adds too much friction, more than the gripper can deal with. Filter end voids are caused when the machine doesn't or cannot hold onto the tube long enough.

Since you are doing a side by side comparison with the Excel it should be noted that the Excel handles overly moist tobacco better than the TOM and PS's

edited

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Re: Void near filter

Posted by Kerry on Sunday, 30-Jul-2006

My money is still on overly hydrated tobacco even though some inexperienced people may think it is "humidity nonsense". From many previous posts, it is clear that the Excel will handle over-hydrated tobacco much better than the Supermatic or TOM.

Using the "feel" by finger test for hydration can be very misleading as you know. The only way to be sure of having properly or at least not overly hydrated tobacco is to have a way to measure humidity.

One other thing not mentioned in this thread, at least I don't think it has been, is the number of times the machine "needs" to be cleaned. I have found that I only need to clean mine once every 6 months or longer unless I have to stuff in humid conditions. Then I might need to clean it every month. So I pay very close attention not only to the hydration of my tobacco, but also to the ambient humidity of the area I stuff in. Yes, ambient humidity does make a difference.

If cleaning a Supermatic is required more often than that, I definitely suspect overly hydrated tobacco or at least very humid conditions (ambient humidity) while stuffing. It doesn't take very long for tobacco to absorb enough moisture from the ambient humidity to cause problems. Not to mention that I believe leaving the tubes themselves out in a humid environment can have a marked negative effect on stuffing even with properly hydrated tobacco.

Of course, this is must my 2 cents worth, but I have found all of these things to have a definite and highly noticed effect on stuffing for me.

Kerry

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Re: Void near filter

Posted by Wazmo Nariz on Monday, 31-Jul-2006

I believe you've put forward some vey valid observations, and ones I've noted as well. I've been doing the MYO thing steadily since 1999, and the one common thing I've noted regarding jamming, voids and excessive gunk build-up is overly moist tobacco--even more so than overly dry tobacco.

You're also spot on regarding the tubes...the paper can and will absorb plenty of moisture from the air, and a dry tube will stuff easier than a damp, semi-limp tube every time.

It all comes down to experience, because of course, even the cut can cause variations in stuffability. I know that I, for one, used to go wild experimenting with one type of tobacco or another for the first few weeks/months...in addition to varying moisture content, there were varying cuts, amounts of sticks, birds-eyes, etc. Just as I'd get used to stuffing one brand, I'd switch to another and it seemed like I had to learn all over again.

Since I've been sticking to just a small number of tobaccos and can adjust my technique quickly now according to cut, moisture, etc., I never have a jam-up, never stuff a dud and, like you, rarely need to strip Big Blue down for a total clean-out more than annually (I will rinse it out every couple of months by running a forceful stream of water into the chamber while working the crank to help rinse out any accumulated tobacco dust, afterwards blowing it out with air thoroughly).

Practice and low humidity/moisture content does indeed make perfect. :-)

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Re: Void near filter

Posted by Dave L on Tuesday, 01-Aug-2006

You've both made good points. If your machine isn't working well, the first thing to do is clean it. Taking the cutter out (3 nuts) and using a tube brush is not that hard. Flushing with water (even soapy water isn't a good solvent where tobacco is involved) or alcohol (without wiping the surface, there will always be tobacco residue left behind) will help but won't really clean the machine.

I think its fair to say that too much moisture in any aspect of SYO will have a negative effect. While the 'feel', or an accurate measurement, of the tobaccos moisture content will provide a frame of reference, the ultimate test is how well the tobacco stuffs. Some tobaccos stuff well with a significantly higher moisture content than others (cut and other factors, e.g. toppings).

Mechanical issues have just as much importance as moisture issues. A machine that is clean, well tuned and adjusted (e.g. gripping well), is much less sensitive to variations in tobacco quantity and moisture content.

While the topic is filter end voids, the OP (Bryan) said he had no tobacco on the tip of the spoon when ejecting a tobacco plug (no tube). Without a tube, none of the usual suspects apply. Filter end voids are almost always friction related. When the friction between the tube and tobacco is higher than the friction between the gripper and the tube, the tube will come off. As you increase the moisture in either the tube or tobacco, or increase the quantity of tobacco, the friction between tobacco and tube increases. If you remove the tube from the equation and assume that no tobacco at the tip of the spoon is causing his voids, the only explanations are an overly retracted cutter/compressor (unlikely) or not enough tobacco.

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Friction Re: Void near filter: Posted by Kerry on Tuesday, 01-Aug-2006
I think he also said he had no problems using an Excel, side by side, same tobacco.

Too moist tobacco does cause more friction in the metal chamber, thus causing it to push back when the tobacco is compressed and the spoon is pushed out. This friction caused by over-hydrated tobacco is the same reason why the machine needs to be cleaned more often when using too moist tobacco.

I have seen this many times on my Supermatic. The void near the filter can easily be caused by too moist tobacco. Apparently, the Excel with its plastic contruction does not have nearly the same problem with friction. Apparently because of the nature of a plastic as opposed to metal chamber. I am not sure why this is true, but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence on this site to believe it is true.

I guess that makes $.04 cents for me. ;)
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Re: Void near filter

Posted by Wamo Nariz on Tuesday, 01-Aug-2006

If there isn't any tobacco at the end of the spoon upon ejection sans tube, and the chamber is indeed filled (including the left-most corner), it *is* a peculiar situation and must be a mechanical problem of some sort.

With nothing to do for a moment, I got out a can of McClintock FF I recently bought and took out a couple of 1 gram samples from the bottom of the can where it's still quite moist. I took one sample and filled the chamber and imediatley ejected it without a tube...then, after alowing the other to dry out bit (about 10 minutes in an air-conditioned room) I repeated the process. Both samples appeared to properly move out with the spoon, with tobacco at the very end of it with both samples. Repeating the process with tubes, the moist sample most assuredly had a greater void near the filter than the drier sample (which really had none to speak of).

In the OP's case, perhaps something is "snagging" the tobacco as it's being ejected at first, which is overcome with the force of the ejection process as it completes; or maybe the spoon barbs aren't gripping the plug properly....

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Re: Void near filter

Posted by Wazmo Nariz on Tuesday, 01-Aug-2006

Addendum:

I just repeated the above experiment with some *very* moist freshly opened PS London Export....

The moist plug appeared(sans tube) noticibly *behind* the tip of the spoon (the tip of the spoon appeared out of the nozzle first, IOW), while the sample I allowed to dry appeared *before* the tip of the spoon emerged. Granted, the London Export sample is far more moist than the first run I tried with the McC FF.... Also, the cut of the LE is far finer than the McC FF as well.

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Re: Void near filter

Posted by Jderringer on Wednesday, 02-Aug-2006

If you have an extra spoon, try this. Take a very sharp knife and put like 20 scratches across the face of the spoon (where the tobacco sits) to increase friction. I tried this last night and stuffed a carton today. No more "voids" at the filter, but leaves a tiny bit of tobacco sticking out the end sometimes. One or two quick taps and perfect! Now if I could figure out how to keep the tobacco in the tube so I can quit dumping that teaspoon of tobacco out of my case every time I refill it.

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Re: Void near filter

Posted by Kerry on Wednesday, 02-Aug-2006

Try not only tapping the stick filter side down, but also filter side up.

I find this helps to compact the open end of the stick and helps to keep tobacco from falling out.

If I am only stuffing as needed, say while watching TV, etc, I do this per stick. If I am filling the Smoky case, I only tap the sticks filter side down and when the case is full, tap/tamp them both ways.

Try it! It does help.

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Re: Void near filter: Posted by Matt on Thursday, 03-Aug-2006

"Try not only tapping the stick filter side down, but also filter side up."

...a great piece of advice. I do this quite often when I have a cigarette that comes out a little on the tight side & it works every time.

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Re: Void near filter

Posted by Dave L on Friday, 04-Aug-2006

Did you try stuffing the London Export? I'd think that you'd either have serious filter end voids and a bunch of tobacco hanging out of the tip, or tubes not coming off the machine and tobacco being left behind in the nozzle.

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Re: Void near filter: Posted by Wazmo Nariz on Friday, 04-Aug-2006
I learned my lesson about stuffing London Export straight out of the can long ago :-) But properly dried, it stuffs as well as any other similarly cut tobacco--quite well. Normally, I prefer the taste of the London Export when it's a bit too mist to stuff, so I usually hand roll it using Rayo (or Swan) filter plugs with Rizla Silver papers.
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Re: Void near filter: Posted by Francis E. Jones, III on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2006
Byran,

About your "void near filter" situation. Most of the replies your have received on the Forum are correct -- up to a point. I am going to give you gold answer because I wish someone had given it to me those first few frustrating days with the TOM. If you haven't already figured it out yet; here it is: position the TOM on an angle so that the lower lefthand corner is aimed towards your gut; fill the trough ( as you already know, moisture and fill level have something to do with success); and here is the GOLD -- instead of performing the crank in a single motion as the instructions describe; make it a two motion process -- first motion is to slowly crank down until the crank handle is pointing almost directly towards what would be the lower right hand corner if you were working the TOM paralell to your body -- the crank can actually stop or rest at this point in the process; the GOLDEN touch follows -- swiftly pull the crank handle towards your gut;(quickly but not too hard or forcefully) You will know immediately if there is too much tobacco in the tamping tray and you can back off thereby preserving your warranty) Voila! a smoke without "void near filter." Cranking the handle from this machine position is considerably more ergonomic and seriously reduces cranking errors; it is kind of like a golf swing; slow back swing and a quick, controlled down swing. This will surely work everytime if the tobacco is loaded correctly. Happy? Good, now send me a few of your best smokes or at least your blend recipe and a description for the blend's taste.
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Re: Void near filter

Posted by Stan on Thursday, 03-Aug-2006

As my supermatic II got older I have the same problem. I took a small fine triangular file and I filed the notches on the universal spoon deeper and made the points sharp. I also added 5 or 6 more notches in back of the orginal ones about 1/8 inch apart. The only time I get a void now is when I dont put enough tobacco in it.
Hope this helps everyone.
Enjoy, Stan

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Re: Void near filter: Posted by Kevin on Saturday, 05-Aug-2006
Everything mentioned does make slight differences in what you need to do to get a perfect stuff, tube size is another.
For the bigger tubes that fall on easily, I've found that hesitating a second after the injection stroke and before withdrawing the spoon will allow the tobacco to expand and stay. Going too quickly will let the spoon drag the tobacco back out causing a filter void.
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Re: Void near filter

Posted by Ralph on Friday, 25-Aug-2006

My first recommendation is to throw out that Chinese piece of crap.

My second suggestion is to dry out your tobacco. My hypothesis is that with the increased popularity of SYO, our tobacco is increasingly fresher. My old brand used to be Stoker's Light 2. They stopped selling it here in Michigan. Thanks Granholm. One thing about Stoker's, it was always the right humidity as it stuffed like a dream. I don't know what they did in production but it was miraculous. After I was cut off from Stoker's, I tried every cheap brand known to man. I go to a good tobacco shop so all of it is fresh. Every brand is too moist. I dry my tobacco out 8 hours in advance by laying it on a table. If I forget, I put a pile in the oven, turn the oven on until the heating element turns red (three minutes tops) and then shut the oven off. I then leave it in the oven for five minutes (i.e. I smoke a previously stuffed ciggie). Moist tobacco then stuffs with no voids. Hope this helps.

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Re: Void near filter: Posted by Kev on Sunday, 27-Aug-2006
I've also dried out tobacco that was too moist by using the microwave on a defrost setting. Tobacco that is too moist will cause the void plus it will gum up your cutter real quick.
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Re: Void near filter: Posted by cathy on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2006
Yeah, I have the same problem with mine, I am also looking for answers....I love the machine but the damn thing don't make em right!
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Re: Void near filter

Posted by Ralph on Saturday, 28-Oct-2006

The situation for me eventually became chronic. I have been using two machines (Supermatic and Excel) over the last two or three years. I am stuffing for my wife as well and we are both heavy smokers. At first I thought it was the different tobacco I was using and moisture content. Both machines started exhibiting the void. Both machines were cleaned thoroughly. I put a new spoon on the Excel. Over time I have replaced a number of parts on the Supermatic including the cutter. I am beginning to suspect that over time the release mechanism is somehow wearing away. Since I used both machines extensively, I bought a new one. The problem went away so it isn't the tobacco. I hope to eventually solve this problem by replacing parts until it fixes the issue. Even if it isn't fixable, I'll be quite happy getting a year out of a machine. Figure two years for a person stuffing for one. While I initially preferred the Supermatic, over time, the wear and tear on my arms, wrists and fingers has put me back in the Excel camp.

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Re: Void near filter: Posted by Dave L on Saturday, 28-Oct-2006
Sounds like gripper or tube release issues (see Scott's mod for the Excel). For arms, wrists and fingers see the Hopper Tray (and/or keep the machine squeaky clean... the yet to be released adjustable cutter may make that much less of an issue).
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Which machine to buy?

Posted by Raymond Morris on Wednesday, 07-Jun-2006

I am wondering about the durabilty of the new topomatic machine. I work offshore and will be leaving my premier supermatic at home. As I only make kingsize maybe I should buy the supermatic-II. I have used my wifes excell machine but it gets real slugish as I smoke halfwarez and I really need something with a metal cutter. The excell stuffs better than my supermatic. Having never used a supermatic-II or topomatic=reliability is a issue here. We are 150 miles out in the gulf. And which one stuffs better with less fiddling with? Maybe just another supermatic and be done with it!?!.

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Re: Which machine to buy?

Posted by Mary on Wednesday, 07-Jun-2006

I had a Supermatic II first and had to take it apart and clean it all the time. I now use a Top-O-Matic. I have had it about 8 months and have not have to do much other that clean the edge of cutter off. It does stuff kingsize tubes better when set on the 100's setting.
Mary

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Re: Which machine to buy?: Posted by Dustin c on Thursday, 06-Jul-2006
i read many things online about the both machins i chosse the top o matic because of stamped metal parts making it tougher and less to breakage and looked at the web site www.ryomagazine.com also helped and gave great info too
i had a excell for 3 years only 2 spring breaks going to ordered a top o matic yesterday
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Load, measure, crank - perfect king-size cigarette

Posted by WantedaPerfectCigaretteEveryTime on Sunday, 14-May-2006

If you're like me, and want to be able to crank out a perfect king-size cigarette everytime without having to think about "do i have the right amount of tobacco in the hopper", you'll want to think about getting a digital scale with a .01 gram accuracy, tare (zero out) function that subtracts and shows negative numbers, and has at least 50 grams capacity.

Simple process to get 'perfect' king-size cigarette everytime.

1. Put tray on scale
2. Load up with blend - don't go past gram capacity.
3. Zero out (push Tare/Zero button)
4. Pinch out .8 grams or so of blend (depends on blend; my everyday smoke is 3 parts Vengeur Platinum, 2 parts Penhooker, 1 part Ramback - all from D&R). Scale shows a negative .80 plus or minus a few 1/100's of a gram.
5. Distribute into crank hopper.
6. Crank.
7. Repeat steps 3 through 6 until blend is gone.

Voila, no cutter wearing out nonsense, same stuff consistency everytime. And as D&R tobacco has always been a great stuffing tobacco, no "too moist", "too dry" issues.

After comparing the various .01 gram (1/100 gram) digital scales, I chose the My Weigh Durascale 100. The Durascale 100 is available at saveonscales.com; shipped UPS ground, costs a tad under 90 bucks (less than the cost of two cartons of cigs in Washington). You'll want to check out the My Weigh MX-50C, My Weigh Durascale 50, My Weigh iBalance 201 and the Jennings JS-100x as well. DigitalScales.Com (Scale Magazine site compared the .01 gram precision scales - My Weigh Durascale 50, My Weight MX 50 and Jennings JS-50 came out on top.)

Bought the My Weigh Durascale 100 as it has 30 year guarantee (no fees), 100 gram capacity (5 packs or so), tare/zero out and negative weight readout functionality, the "Hummer" build quality, ScaleMagazine.com Durascale 50 recommendation, programmable backlit LCD, cover/tray/bowl and calibration weight/functionality. Thought seriously about (1) My Weight iBalance 201 (200 grams for 20 bucks more), but didn't like the gem-focused tray and (2) the Jennings JS-100x (shipped about 62 bucks), but didn't like the small cover/tray and the 5 year, 10 buck fee guarantee.

BTW, other good sites for scales include rightonscales.com and oldwillknottsscales.com - neither site carried the Durascale 100 gram model, so went with saveonscales.com.

Cheers.

P.S. Per Scales Magazine, digital scales have dropped over 50% in price in past two years; suspect there'll be great .01 gram accurate 100-200 gram scales for less than 50 bucks within the next year or so.

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Re: Perfect king-size cigarette every time

Posted by Dano on Sunday, 14-May-2006

Now that's pretty funny!

Hold On Honey! I'm weighing your next cig... STOP Walking on the kitchen floor! You're making the scale shake!!

And I thought I'd heard it all :)

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Re: Perfect king-size cigarette every time: Posted by Mike on Sunday, 14-May-2006
Vibrakill pad, baby, a consistent cig every 10 seconds or so. ;)
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Re: Load, measure, crank - perfect king-size cigarette

Posted by Manx on Sunday, 14-May-2006

I've never used a scale, even for blending. My secret?

1. Load what appears to be the correct amount of properly dry tobacco into the chamber.

2. Crank and tap the finished stick. Too soft or more than 1/8th inch of empty tube at the end? Add a pich more tobacco next time. Too hard? Try a pinch less.

Spend the $50 you saved on some nice, tasty tobacco. ;-)

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Re: Load, measure, crank - perfect king-size cigarette

Posted by Mike on Sunday, 14-May-2006

(; Formerly known as WantedaPerfectCigaretteEverytime ;)

Yeah, I know, I know. But I got pissed off at the slack near the filter, the 1/8th inch gaps, torn paper (when overstuffing). And I like the ability to whip out a pack of smokes without that agita as I sip my early morning coffee before leaving for work.

Also, since I like to repeat my blends consistently, I like the scale's accuracy when blending different tobaccos.

What's a few bucks up front when I get to rot my lungs in style for the next few years.

Cheers ;)

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Re: Load, measure, crank - perfect king-size cigarette: Posted by Manx on Sunday, 14-May-2006
Well, I for one was just yankin' yer chain. I actually did use a scale at one time for some of my more esoteric blends until I got used to eyeballing it. ;-)
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Re: Load, measure, crank - perfect king-size cigarette

Posted by Dave L on Monday, 15-May-2006

I can see doing this with a handheld but I need at least a smoke and a half's worth of tobacco to make a decent smoke with a crank machine. With the crank machine its not about a specific quantity of tobacco but where and how tight you pack tobacco in the slot. When the cutter/compressor closes it pushes some tobacco up out of the chamber, getting just enough tobacco packed in the chamber without any pushing out seems like a time consuming PITA. You may as well use a handheld because the main advantage of the crank machine is that it trims off excess tobacco.

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Re: Load, measure, crank - perfect king-size cigarette

Posted by Mike on Tuesday, 30-May-2006

Thanks for feedback, Dave.

I can see that, with lots of practice, the method that Doug at Rye shows on how to "speed" load cigarettes, or using your hopper is effective. However, speed isn't the driver for me - it's a consistent cigarette load.

I tried the Doug method for about one hundred cigarettes, kept getting highly varied results (suspect I just don't "have the touch" ;)).

By using the scale, I found I got consistent results. I found that the weight of the cigarette was the key - approx .8 grams works every time (for my vengeur, penhooker, ramback blend, for instance). This allows me not to worry about how tight to pack it (I make sure to leave the cutter/compressor edge just showing), just to make sure I fill the corners first and roughly adjust so the tobacco is level with the cutter edge. The time saver for me isn't the cutting, it's the compression (used to use ZigZag hand injector, lots of tamping). And I turn out cigarettes about twice as fast as the handheld.

Anyways, thanks for starting this site. I touch base with it about once every two weeks; always find helpful information.

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Re: Load, measure, crank - perfect king-size cigarette: Posted by Dave L on Wednesday, 31-May-2006
Speed = efficiency (i.e. KISS/Occam's Razor) + experience. The hopper tray increases efficiency because it reduces the time handling tobacco.

I hadn't realized that the Supermatics efficiency could be broken into two parts, easier compression and because it trims excess tobacco. The trimming part does require experience. It takes time to get a feel for how much pressure to use when filling the slot. It helps to start out by using tobaccos with a similar cut (and moisture content). I started with relatively coarse cut blends and initially had a hard time getting a feel for fine-cut tobaccos (switching to 'cigarette size' tubes was yet another learning curve).

My point about measuring out tobacco is that, through time/experience, you'll get a feel for volume. This will make you more efficient with a hand-held but not with the Supermatic.
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Lucky mistake

Posted by Jo on Monday, 20-Feb-2006

When I stuffed king size tubes on the Supermatic on the King setting, I always had tobacco sticking out about a forth of an inch.

My husband bought some Premium tubes in the 100s size by mistake. When I put the setting on 100s, then it filled the Premier 100 tubes about a forth of an inch too short on the ends and didn't fill up tight near the filter.

I cut off the ends of the 100s and learned to get the tobacco to fill tight up around the filter, by putting a lot of extra tobacco on the left side of the spoon feeder. The holder the tube goes on is on the left side and so it can hold a lot of tobacco.

But the amazing thing is, I put the King size tube on the 100s setting and it makes a perfect King size cigarette! I am glad to find that out because I like the king sizes the best and was dreading trying to adjust the sizes using a hex nut screwdriver.

I also put the setting between A and B (100s and Kings) and it made a perfect 100s cigarette.

I thought I would post this in case other Supermatics have their sizes backwards.

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Re: Lucky mistake: Posted by Mary on Sunday, 26-Feb-2006
Thanks for the tip. I tried in on my Top-O-Matic and now I don't need to tap the cigarettes to get the tobacco all the way to the filter.
Thanks again...this is a real time saver.

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Re: Lucky mistake: Posted by Cindie on Saturday, 01-Apr-2006
That is the best tip yet!!!!!
Thank you so much. I just bought a T.O.P.. I like 100'S, but found the same problem you had. The injector wouldn't push the tabbaco in far enough. I just set the lever for the length of the cigarette in the middle, and, it works great now.
Maybe the company should make a change in the machine to accommodate those of us who like the 100's.
Thanks again. Happy rolling. :-)

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Supermatic

Posted by Joe on Friday, 03-Feb-2006

Ok just so you know the Premier supermatic (made by ctc) is in fact the Top supermatic (made by rba). Republic (rba) Purchased clinton (ctc) and now owns all intellectual property I.E. engineering patents etc. on the supermatic. So only difference and it might be big?? is where they were or are produced and possibly top has been refined for better or worse I.E. singer sewing machines???

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Re: Supermatic

Posted by Bob on Saturday, 04-Feb-2006

I have both. They are not the same machine, although they are very similar, take look at the base, and you will notice they are different. I find the Top-O-Matic to work much better than the Supermatic, which constantly needed cleaning.

I have never cleaned the Top, it just keeps purring along.

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Re: Supermatic: Posted by Bob on Saturday, 04-Feb-2006
BTW, CTC was purchased by Imperial Tobbaco, RBA stands for Robert Burton Associates, a subsidiary of Imperial.

TOP is owned by Republic Tobbaco, they do not own any of CTC's engineering patents.
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Re: Supermatic: Posted by George on Tuesday, 07-Feb-2006
RBA is owned by imperial tobacco. They are not affilliated with Republic Tobacco, and in fact are direct competitors. The new Top-O-matic is not the same machine, they are produced by two different companies.
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Premier Supermatic

Posted by Randall on Sunday, 18-Dec-2005

Well I've got the blue Premier supermatic injector. I'm not the least bit happy. It worked fine when it was new, but now it doesn't. I keep it in the 100s setting, after 100 packs the so called "all metal construction" failed since the NYLON! ram pulled the screw out of the nutplate. Ok a little super glue on the knurled nutfixture and clamping flush....good for another 100 packs. Next failure: Bad packing, gaps in filter end or lighting end. Look I don't want to milk and pack each smoke by hand. Blame it on what ever you want. Call me an amateur, I can twist a better one by hand, but I want a filtered 100.

Look, I paid $45.00 for this failure. Use Tool steel, not this soft malleable crap, or at least heat treat it before assembly. And that includes the ram and spoon. If I roll an unsmokeable brick, then that's my fault. If the tobacco breaks the machine, that's your fault. I can't control the moisture content of off the shelf bags, and shouldn't have to. If you want to be "premier" then live up to the name. I wasn't buying a novelty, I was buying a Machine. You know a tool not a toy. I'm still under warrantee, But I don't want a replacement for design failure, I want a machine that works consistantly regaurdless of tobacco quality.

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Re: Premier Supermatic: Posted by Dan the littledog on Sunday, 18-Dec-2005
I agree. That said i roll in a hand roller. To make the changes you mention would drive the price up to maybe 75$. and then the Top-O-Matic would grab all the sales. Cheap is what people want and buy.
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Re: Premier Supermatic: Posted by Denny on Sunday, 18-Dec-2005
Hey I agree with you. If you want to buy a better machine at a lower cost try the Top O Matic. Been using for about 2 months, and yes its like the Eveready bunny still going strong without any cleanings or modifications, except for Dave's hopper tray which I took off my scrapped Premier!
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Supermatic vs Top O Matic

Posted by Denny on Wednesday, 16-Nov-2005

First off I am not affiliated with Tobacco, or tobacco related companies in any way shape or forum! Also I am not a design engineer (my real job is hospital security enforcement). And as you will see I am not a paid professional writer! I am just a guy who is existing from paycheck to paycheck, hoping that I can afford to buy enough gas to get to work and enough tobacco and tubes to get me through till my next pay. With that said lets get started.
My stuff your own experience began this past August at Rehoboth Beach Delaware.
Both my wife and myself were G.P.C. brand smokers, which are not one of the highest quality brands. At $37 dollars a carton, between the two of us we were spending about $300 dollars a month!
Well to make a long story short, we were on vacation and went to a cigarette outlet at Rehoboth, and proceeded to buy our smokes at about $27 bucks a carton. While at the outlet I noticed that hidden away in the corner of the shop was a small Top tobacco display, which included all the RYO/MYO supplies including the new Top O Matic injecting machine. At that time I made a comment to my wife that before we go back to Pennsylvania I was going to have one of those machines, as to the fact that our grateful governments are consuming our monetary resources at an increasing rate.
Since we were down there mainly to fish (need to put something on the table), and not for the richer things at the boardwalk, which we cant afford, I sceptically purchased the Top O Matic. Upon arriving at our campsite I read all information pertaining to the loading and operating procedures for making a successful cigarette. Well I stuffed about 20 smokes, and jammed the machine. Not knowing what to do next I forced the machine, and broke it. I thought to myself this is junk, what a rip off! I took it back to the store and got my money back.
As most normal people would think that would be the end of my S.Y.O. experience, but I am a determined type of guy, so I did what any stubborn guy would do, and purchased a Supermatic when I got to my home in Pennsylvania.
When I got my Supermatic, I was very careful as to not over stuff the machine, and treated the Supermatic like a baby. At about that time I found this site, and RYO magazine and started to purchase my supplies over the Internet, a true learning experience! Almost from the get go I had trouble with the Supermatic I tried most of the tricks listed on this forum, but still had the related problems that plague this machine. Then parts started to fail first it was the cutter/compressor then the cigarette size selector, and the latest was the loading spoon. In the mean time I started reading very positive reviews on the Top O Matic. So I reluctantly decided to give the Top O Matic another try and the following are my findings.

SUPERMATIC
A North Americian designed and made machine, that uses standard fractional sized parts and hardware. Machine tolerances appear to be less than precise, at least in the cutter/compressor area. All parts appear to be adequately sized, but poorly fit. Tubes fit on easily and parts are easily obtained. Cleanup is easy (I use a water flush to get loose tobacco out of the machine when it gets jammed up) It also will support Dave's hopper, which is an invaluable asset.
TOP O MATIC
A Chinese made product, which appears to be a design copy of the Supermatic. This machine uses metric sized parts and hardware. Machine parts appear to be more precise and are adequately sized and uniformly fit (much tighter tolerances). Compressor/cutter bar appears to be a better fit and harder. Tubes fit a little tighter, and may need a little sanding to make things go faster. Also this machine will make a better 100mm on that setting than the Supermatic. You may have to fine tune the release cam but it is consistent! Cleanup? well I haven't touched, or done anything to mine, as the tobacco does not get gunk-ed up like the Supermatic. This machine will also support Dave's tobacco hopper with no differences in the mounting procedures. The big negative is that the well fitting rubber mat has a fragrance that some people may not appreciate. As for me it does not affect either the performance, or taste of the finished product plus I don't find the smell too objectionable.
RANDOM NOTES AND OPINION
As stated in the beginning of this review I am not getting paid or reimbursed for any of my comments, as they are strictly my own honest opinions and nothing more!
With that reminder, I must say that Supermatic needs to reevaluate their machines. I would recommend that they should upscale their quality control department, and stress tighter tolerances with their cutter/compressor bar and cavity. I had taken the liberty of purchasing a cutter/compressor bar from Top O Matic. I checked this bar against the Supermatic, and found them to be compatible. I replaced the bar in the Supermatic with the Top O Matic, and found a more reasonable result. The only problem is that the tobacco holds up on the Supermatic spoon. I also tried to use the Top O Matic spoon in the Supermatic, and you can't! The cutter chamber tolerances will not allow it.
As much as I don't like to do this, I feel that I would not be doing service to all the stuff your own readers if I didn't highly recommend the Top O Matic over the Supermatic. It is amazing that the designers of fine products only find that their products are made smaller, cheaper, and better by offshore companies. I can only hope that the makers of the one and only Supermatic machines would profit from their competitors.
For the money and quality I would currently recommend the Top O Matic over the Supermatic.

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Re: Supermatic vs Top O Matic

Posted by MyFaceFrozeThatWay on Wednesday, 16-Nov-2005

An interesting and well thought-out piece, and if anyone sold those machines around my area (I haven't seen them anyplace yet) I'd probably force them to allow me to try it just for the heck of it. But....

I've been using the Premier Supermatic for well over 14 months. I've never jammed it (except when too inebriated to realise that I've seriously overstuffed it with moist tobacco or dumped powder into it :-) ), have yet to break a part or piece and I've never had it apart to clean it but once (this was about two months ago to buff up and sharpen the cutter block). I tweaked the cam release and spoon travel once when I first bought it (While still at the store, see below) and it makes excellent kings as well as 100mm smokes every time. I'm certain that's down to the machine being well-made and also to the fact that the guy who sold it gave me excellent "training" on the thing before I left the store (and even checked and slightly adjusted the spoon travel and cam release with me), something few others appear to do from reading the problems (often self-inflicted) people see to have.

Admittedly, it's been 14 months since I bought it--I can't say what they may or may not be like now. But I'll also say competition is what makes things better, so if indeed the PS has suffered from the "early-70's Jaguar syndrome", then perhaps this will open their eyes towards getting their act together.

I would also stress that anyone who sells either machine should know how to use it (or have someone on hand who does) and can give at least a minimal bit of hands-on bit of training so that the newbie can determine when their tobacco is too moist for injecting, when they're using too much and even how to check the travel. Heck, it would only take a couple of minutes and would probably do wonders for customer loyalty towards the store....

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Re: Supermatic vs Top O Matic

Posted by Denny on Wednesday, 16-Nov-2005

Yes I am sorry that I forgot the issue, or lack of by using tobacco which is too moist or dry for the Supermatic/Top O Matic.
In regards to machine tolerances for either using too moist, or too dry tobacco, the Top O Matic is tops. That is not to say its unjammable. After all that is how I ruined my first one, but I have taken tobacco that was either too moist or dry for the Supermatic and successfully loaded perfect cigarettes in the Top O Matic without incident.
It is my hope some of the other Top O Matic/Supermatic owners will also attest to this fact.

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Re: Supermatic vs Top O Matic

Posted by Warren on Wednesday, 16-Nov-2005

I agree with your review, having used Top-o-Matic for several months. The Suprematic worked fine with American Spirit, but had major jamming problems with Gauloises and Sagamore Natural (I had to use roller with those tobaccos). With ToM, any tobacco I tried worked fine and no need clean it up at all (with SP I had to do it every few days). I did throw away the stinky ToM's rubber mat and it actually is easier to use since I don't have to open it to blow off the tobacco from inside, it just falls down on a tray and I swipe it off after the stuffing batch. Since I use nonfiltered Excel tubes, the wider nozzle of ToM also turned out problematic on some boxes of Excels, so I sanded off the nozzle and it is fine now.

In short, after these initial adjustments, it was a completely hassle free machine. With SP, every time I was making cigarettes, my thoughts would keep revolving around how to improve the stuffers. With ToM, I haven't thought about it in months. I wish the US made machine were better of the two, but it just isn't and I would recommend ToM. It's not perfect, just perfectly usable.

I think these machines need to automate the chamber loading so that you just fill up a tray and they do the tobacco separation and loading, so you need only to mount the tube and crank the handle, and it is ready for the next. Another item on the wishlist is to have the machine automatically pack in the tobacco at the tube ends (with nonfiltered you have two ends to tidy up), so I don't need to do it manually on each stick (otherwise, the tobacco hangs off the ends which can be a fire hazard). Both of these features seem quite feasable mechanically and either would help great deal.

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Re: Supermatic vs Top O Matic

Posted by MyFacrFrozeThatWay on Saturday, 19-Nov-2005

Since this machine seems to be, essentially, a total clone of the Supermatic, why shouldn't your mind still be drifting on about improvements? ;-)

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Re: Supermatic vs Top O Matic

Posted by Warren on Saturday, 19-Nov-2005

It's a close clone, except for few small but key bits that were improved (blade material & fit, thicker geer) and a couple that were worsened (rubber mat stench & wider nozzle). The worsened bits were fixable and have stayed fixed while the improvements removed the most problematic glitches of the Suprematic, which weren't user fixable. It is strange, but those glitches would set me off on what kind of stuffers I would design (if I had time and a machine shop) every time I would use it. I still have a wishlist, but I don't think of building one myself, the right way, any more.

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Re: Supermatic vs Top O Matic

Posted by Denny on Saturday, 19-Nov-2005

Hear! Hear! I'll second that!!!!
Now since I retired the supermatic, I put my tool kit away. I have yet to take the TOP apart and clean, or adjust any thing.
I know there are some happy Supermatic fans out there, and I wish you well.
As Neil Young sang, Long May You Run!

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Re: Supermatic vs Top O Matic

Posted by MyFaceFrozeThatWay on Saturday, 19-Nov-2005

Don't get me wrong; I'd be happy to give the thing a try if anyone in my area would bother to stock 'em so I could try one out. Without that option, I can't see buying something that may or may not (in my particular case) be any sort of improvement. Now, if Old Blue ever breaks down or goes missing, that would be another story. ;-)

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Re: Supermatic vs Top O Matic: Posted by Denny on Saturday, 19-Nov-2005
Yes I totally agree with you. I don't know why Republic Tobacco is only picking a few outlets to sell this machine.It's almost scary!
Since Republic owns Top and Zig Zag, I would think they would want to flood the SYO market with these cheaper machines. Maybe its some type of gentleman's agreement between the Supermatic and Top O Matic companies? Ha Ha.
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Re: Supermatic vs Top O Matic: Posted by Racoonster on Saturday, 19-Nov-2005
I started SYO years ago, after much on-line research, buy getting a Supermatic from D&R. This one was a Maroon and Silver model, that I abused beyond all reason. I had no idea how much tobacco to use, etc. Jammed it many times. But it held up. However, I stopped using it for awhile, tobacco was hard to find, except for D&R. I had a pound of tobacco mold, and cigarettes were relatively cheap still, since I live in the South, so I went back to pre-made.

I picked it back up again, though, maybe 4-5 years ago. For the quality of the tobacco, and the tax free status. Low cost was secondary then. Still used the same old Supermatic, but I learned how to use properly. Also, I had bought a can of Zig Zag that had a little plastic spoon in it, measured the perfect amount, and I still use it everyday. Even have a back up can of the tobacco with another spoon, in case I lose or break this one, since I could not find another anywhere else. Don't particularly like the tobacco though, the can remains unopened 3 years later.

After acquiring lots of tobacco and tubes, I decided I needed a back up machine, I didn't relish the idea of the alternatives if my machine broke. I considered an Excell, but got the new Blue Supermatic. It wasn't as good as the Maroon one, operationally, as the tolerances WERE looser. But I liked the addition of the rubber mat, that was a new feature. Before the PS came with the rubber mat, there were places to buy those mats as an add on. I'm not sure if they are still available, or if they will fit the Top machine, but if so, you could possibly use it to replace the stinky one.

I'm still using both of these in rotation, with all original parts. Recently broke a return spring on the Maroon one, but kind of like to use it without. However, I can see the writing on the wall so want another machine before the final breakdown. Depending on which is cheaper, I'll probably buy either one as the next back-up.

I also fear that SYO machines will become heavily taxed, or banned *, or some other silly misguided laws will effect the ability to easily acquire these. And I refuse to go back to store bought smokes. From what I've read here, I'm not afraid of getting burned by trying the new machine.

* I'm told Chills Americana Tobacco no longer available because that company sold items that could be used to smoke other products. The propreiter is imprisoned.
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everyone should have a hand roller for the "good stuff"

Posted by tom on Tuesday, 15-Nov-2005

as a retailer, i hear from my customers, what they do to remove the "shake / dust" from the bag of tobacco. many of whom have broken tobacco injectors trying to stuff that last little bit of tobacco. or they separate the shake and throw it away.
my suggestion, buy a hand roller or a roller box and mix the shake with the long cut. you will end up with a smoke that is better than your injected. since the shake comes from the best part of the leaf (no stem or vien) you owe it to yourself to give it a try.
if you want a filter, ask your retailer. you can roll them with a filter.
try it you will like it :)

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Re: everyone should have a hand roller for the "good stuff": Posted by platoslostdialogue on Wednesday, 16-Nov-2005
Every time I've ever rolled or injected a cigarette with shake, mixed with long cut or by itself, regardless of the tobacco, it has tasted like ass.
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Re: everyone should have a hand roller for the "good stuff"

Posted by MyFaceFrozeThatWay on Wednesday, 16-Nov-2005

Depends on what you call "shake." I use the word to refer to the particles that have the size and consistency of dust or sand (or even course ground peppercorns). That stuff is useless even handrolled, since it would either be packed too tight to draw or so loose it would tend to fall out (I speak from experience, as I own many shirts and pants with burn marks from trying). Stands that are simply shorter in length because of breakage and whatnot should still inject fine if mixed with the normal size strands they came from.

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Re: everyone should have a hand roller for the "good stuff"

Posted by tom on Wednesday, 16-Nov-2005

what do i call shake? take a pinch of what you think is quality tobacco, then set it out for 24hrs, rub the tobacco between your palms, if it is reduced to dust then that is what i call shake. if it don't reduce to dust then it is probably stems. the quality of the tobacco has remain the same, the size and moisture changed. for the the person that posted saying shake tasted like %$#, i would question the quality of the tobacco that the poster smokes. i don't suggest that you roll it by itself, but blend it with any rag or shag cut tobacco. personally i use it to tone down drum, lookout, sampson, and bali shags.

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Re: everyone should have a hand roller for the "good stuff"

Posted by MyFaceFrozeThatWay on Wednesday, 16-Nov-2005

I guess if someone's really hard up financially, that's better than trying to smoke coffee grounds. I typically give up about a pack's worth of "shake" per pound, which, at about $7/carton for tobacco (not counting tubes), is only 70 cents--and quite frankly, I couldn't be bothered about such a small amount (at about a pack a day, which is what I go through, that's about 3 cents a day). I suppose that might add up, but personally, when I get to the end of a pound, I just rip open a fresh one. ;-)

But this has given me an idea--I might just start saving it up and giving it to some homeless folks along with one of the seemingly zillions of packs of papers I've accumulated over time.

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Re: everyone should have a hand roller for the "good stuff": Posted by MyFaceFrozeThatWay on Wednesday, 16-Nov-2005
Yeah, my math sucks this late at night. That's about 30 cents worth of sake when all's said and done.
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Re: everyone should have a hand roller for the "good stuff": Posted by platoslostdialogue on Thursday, 17-Nov-2005
Currently working on bags of Two Timer Gold, Ramback Gold, Windsail Platinum, and a can of American Spirit US. Is this sub-par tobacco? I don't smoke any of the really cheap stuff like HR or Stoker's. The shake doesn't burn at the same rate as the cut stuff and gets hot and harsh and nasty tasting. It's also hard on my poor abused Excel.
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